Chess960 (FRC)

Gene your bullets are easily refuted: 1. What do ...

2012-05-25T01:30:32.082+02:00

Gene your bullets are easily refuted:

1. What do you mean by bizarre and illogical? Can you clarify that? Why are such words not suitable for a game?

2. Chess960 does help with traditional chess but only when traditional chess and Chess960 are learned and studied TOGETHER

3. The Chess publishing industry is probably in the same problem as all the paper publishing industry because of the internet. It has nothing to do with Chess960. There is many many things to that can be written on the Chess960 opening. There are many re-occurring themes that come up time and time again.

4. Why won't Chess960 catch on? Why not? What is your intention Gene?

5. What is the problem with bishops in the corner? I don't see it.

6. How can Mainz have taught us all that there is to know about Chess960? It perhaps taught us more about human nature than anything.

7. Gene you are mixing concepts. Chess960 is not trying to fix the draw problem in Chess. It is about lessoning "pre-arrangement".

8. Chess960 does not impede home preparation! It merely changes the focus of preparation from a memory of specific lines, to a memory of specific concepts combined with a more research driven approach to home preparation. This is good!

Cheers

I partly disagree with Mark re his bullets about c...

2012-05-23T06:18:13.929+02:00

I partly disagree with Mark re his bullets about chess960-FRC, because the following bullets are True:

•[A - TRUE] Some start positions are too bizarre or illogical for serious play

•[B - TRUE] It won't help you play traditional chess

•[C - TRUE] It will kill the chess publishing industry

•[D - TRUE] It will never catch on

A - Almost half of the chess960-FRC positions have a bishop start on a corner square. Such setups are bad because the bishop has only one way to develop. Those setups should be discarded.

B - Chess960 will not help you play better chess any more than traditional chess1 will help you play better chess.

C - Fischer's truly "random" form of chess960 would hurt the chess book publishing industry because, after one or two purchases of new-style opening books, buyers would realize there is nothing to be gained or learned from chess960 opening books.
However, if we are smart and discard the "random" from Fischer Random Chess, and we pick exactly one sensible nontraditional start position to intensively reuse for a couple decades, then truck loads of entirely new opening books would be sold.

D - The "random" concept is too much when combined the new setup concept. By watch the annual Mainz chess960 tournament we learned that we have already learned all we are ever going to learn about chess960.
Too much of the fun of chess comes from studying the openings. But the overplayed traditional setup follows the same deeply worn ruts into the middle game, to which most worthwhile novelty moves now reside. Variety delayed is variety denied. Novelties should be semi-routine earlier, in the genuine opening phase.

--- --- ---

Is the following a MYTH?

[E - T/F?] If exactly one nontraditional setup was intensively reused for a decade, would that decade see a lower draw rate in elite grandmaster chess than the enormously high draw rate we endure with the traditional setup today? I hope so.

The idea is that at-home preparation would have much more fertile areas early in the opening for strong novelty moves. Sometimes grandmasters can solve in real time over the board the problems novelties pose, but sometimes they cannot.

Thanks, GeneM
CastleLong.com

Let's hope one day it does catch on Mark! I th...

2012-05-20T04:15:06.916+02:00

Let's hope one day it does catch on Mark! I think Chess960 could be struggling because of the demographic ageing of the western world.

Over the next 50 years the structural and numerical ageing of people in Europe, China, Japan and to a lesser extent America, will continue to rise and the fertility rate is continually dropping....

So Chess960 suffers from a triple whammy:

1) The oldies are set in their ways and do not want to try Chess960 and spread myths about Chess960 to try and stop it being accepted.

2) The youth are getting fewer and fewer in proportion and they are distracted by mass marketing of video games.

3) The consumer industry cannot make money out of Chess960 and so must try to distract people by convincing them to waste their money on inferior and superficial games.

To help Chess960 we must continue to show people that Chess960 is probably as good as a game gets. One day people will understand this point. Chess(960) is almost perfect because of the draw. It is perfect that the conclusion of a game can be either win/loss or draw. Three perfect states.

Unfortunately Chess960 does not appeal to the gaming industry because:

-> Chess960 is so simple
-> requires no software,
-> does not require computers
-> needs no electricity
-> the board and pieces can be made with scissors, pencils and paper.

You don't even need pencil and paper if you have a stick and can draw a chessboard on a patch of dirt.

One more comment on myths. Chess960 is about normal distribution. If any one has any interest in how the world works, normal distribution has to be understood. In chess960 most positions are balanced and sit near the middle of the normal distribution.

However there are some few positions that sit at the extremes of the normal distribution and are important and cannot be excluded without destroying the quality of the normal distribution.

These "extremes" require both sides to recognize them when they appear and the pressure is on black to equalize. This requires skill and increases white's odds of winning. Therefore the extreme positions actually help the win/draw/loss statistics and make Chess produce more concrete results.

Chess960 must be played as Bobby Fischer intended it (random chance of 960 starts) because if we ignore him, we will limit the total experience of Chess in all it's amazing formations and will skew the normal distribution which will be to our detriment in the long run.

Cheers
Harry

Here is the first comment on Fischer Random Chess9...

2012-05-17T01:18:09.146+02:00

Here is the first comment on Fischer Random Chess960 in a few weeks.

"... most of the time, there will just be what we have already seen in Moscow – 15-20 moves of preparation, 4-5 more accurate moves, a dead position, and a draw.

So, what is the solution? Sadly, I don't think there is one, at least not without abandoning traditional chess, in favour of Fischer-Random, and I hardly know anyone in the chess world who wants to see that (I certainly don't). It grieves me to say it, but I think classical chess is in its last days"

Source: Steve Giddins' Chess Blog

Mark, the problem as I see it is that people like Steve Gidden's (traditional chess players) have lost their sense of humour. They are trapped in a hell of their own making.

Chess960 is actually very funny and many games have a comical, deep and complex side that all skill levels can enjoy and that brings a smile to the face if you learn how to let that happen.

Cheers
Harry

Mark great post thanks. Chess960 does allow people...

2012-05-13T06:08:48.445+02:00

Mark great post thanks. Chess960 does allow people to express their playing style except for one technically complex issue. I think that symmetry needs to be discussed in the context of Chess960 and creativity. Symmetry can shape the overall feel of quite a few starts even for some time after it is theoretically broken.

Symmetry is what tends to limit a feeling of creativity, but the limitation is only slight and Chess960 is still fine, there is in practice not one bad position in the set of 960.

If you want to try what it is like to play Chess960 with the symmetry dimension removed from the starting theme, try my modified Winboard app that introduces engine screened "Transcendental chess960".

It is a very relaxing way to play the start when there is no possibility for symmetry. It is more creative, but also paradoxically simpler than Chess960 because symmetry adds another layer of technical complexity.

I'm not proposing it as a replacement to Chess960, just that it complements Chess960 in an informal way.

Think of Transcendental Chess960 as being for beginners, and Chess960 for more advanced players.

Check it out:

http://chess960jungle.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/chess960-transcendental-chess960-for.html

Cheers
Harry

LOL....yeah its No Stunt though !! Its real Chess ...

2012-05-04T10:26:19.241+02:00

LOL....yeah its No Stunt though !! Its real Chess Enthusiasm, Its going to take a Little...Ok Lotta ChessTime Mate following the List from your Web Page http://www.mark-weeks.com/cfaa/chess960/c960strt.htm We have just finished Playing the 200th Start position QBNRBKNR and moving Onwards...upWards** and Some of the Games are " Coming to a Screen Near you "...a Handfull of Games is all thats between the 2players Staring "The Higginator -V- The Chefinator" ...Enjoy the ChessFun games and Tunes!....

Russell really well done on the maths!!! Cheers Ha...

2012-05-03T10:32:56.857+02:00

Russell really well done on the maths!!!
Cheers
Harry

I hadn't realized that word verification was a...

2012-05-01T10:29:09.105+02:00

I hadn't realized that word verification was active for comments. I turned it off for all of my blogs. Thanks for the heads-up. - Mark

The "numbering" systems for chess960 are...

2012-05-01T06:35:15.677+02:00

The "numbering" systems for chess960 are really "naming" systems that use three-digit numbers as the names.

The names are for human convenience, not for computers. Computer do not need these name-numbers.

Therefore, any numbering / naming system that fails to make it obvious to humans when two start positions are mirrors of each other is a partial failure.

Mirror: #271 & #771 should be the same piece sequence on rank 1, just in the reverse sequence of each other.

The commonly used Scharnagl system has nice mathematics, but it fails the mirror test for human usability.

GeneM

P.S. If the "Please prove you're not a robot" challenges make the letters any weirder or harder to guess, I will give up.

Eh Mark The site used to be called E-Chess960.com....

2012-04-28T23:36:16.412+02:00

Eh Mark
The site used to be called E-Chess960.com. The new site ChessRex still supports Chess960 it's a name change plus a revamp. The site has been set up at great cost (electricity to run server, time and development) and the community there have done a great job so far. I think you were already a member of E-Chess960.com and so you should still be a member of ChessRex.

Cheers
Harry

Hello; here is a way to convert to and from Chess9...

2012-04-07T04:36:00.231+02:00

Hello; here is a way to convert to and from Chess960 numbers mathematically, without lookup tables at all: The Chess960 Numbers Decoded.
—Russell

Wow a reasoned pawn sacrifice for position it'...

2012-03-17T23:11:37.070+01:00

Wow a reasoned pawn sacrifice for position it's really enjoyable when we find one thanks Mark.

Ok here is the thing. Both Critter and Rybka4 find this pawn sac almost instantly with Critter more certain that it is good (it's evaluation is more clear). So I'm not sure that your opponent is playing by head (they well might be). I only checked because I was curious to see what an engine would play.

It is obvious that you are playing by head because your moves are very different from the machine a lot of the time and it's great to see unassisted ideas as well.

Whatever, it's enjoyable that's the main thing and it's great to see some interesting moves.

Cheers
Enjoy 960
Harry

Another point is that Chess960 is less riddled wit...

2012-03-15T10:02:59.513+01:00

Another point is that Chess960 is less riddled with the draw problem than traditional chess in real world practical play.

This is because white's clock is ticking on the first move while black's is still. This gives a bit of badly needed compensation for being black. This time compensation is not available to traditional chess....

The other point is that in Chess960, there are so many ways to stuff up even as white!

I think the draw problem is less of an issue in Chess960 than traditional chess, and as such a Basque system for Chess960 is less necessary (guessing).

But Chess960 and Basque could be a lot of fun in the respect that each person is playing the same fresh unexplored position from both sides simultaneously which is pretty cool fun conceptually.

But in the practical world, the Basque system for Chess960 would produce so many blunders and reduce the quality of play so much that I doubt it would work to well.

Cheers

It's a great idea for traditional chess I thin...

2012-03-11T00:13:34.092+01:00

It's a great idea for traditional chess I think, but not so much for Chess960.

Traditional chess needs roughly 30% less mental energy than Chess960 at a guess, because there is so much pre-arrangement in traditional chess. Playing two simultaneous Chess960 games would be pretty overwhelming. Personally I'm pretty overwhelmed just playing one game of Chess960!

But for traditional chess it makes sense because not only is the opening familiar, but many mid-game themes are also familiar because they emerge out of the pre-arranged openings. Therefore simultaneous games would be much less confusing.

Cheers

Mark you've really hit the nail again. I think...

2012-03-03T22:25:29.522+01:00

Mark you've really hit the nail again. I think that the BxN tension in Chess960 is a real challenge to evaluate well and I'm constantly either confused about doing it or deluded about not doing it! This is a classic example of inductive scientific inquiry.

Basically the issue with Chess960 in this age of consumerism is that people want to obtain theory off the shelf preferably for nothing, so that the can deduce winning moves.

Chess960 theory at this stage of it's evolution, is highly inductive theory, and less deductive theory, and so there is little purchasable theory and you have no formula to win other than experimentation and hard work. There is theory, but you can't buy it off the shelf, you have to work at it.

There is no theory in Chess960??....

Rubbish!

There is less deductive theory and more inductive theory in Chess960.....

This is good! It explains why you personally like to play both Chess and Chess960. You personally like both forms of inquiry, deductive and inductive inquiry equally.

For those unfamiliar with the concepts:

Deduction: Working from general theory to specific cases

Induction: Working from specific cases to general theory

Chess is an old game and so it is highly deductive theory. Chess960 openings are new and so it is highly inductive theory.

Enjoy 960

Eh Mark Nice game. Forgive me if there are errors ...

2012-02-26T01:06:17.098+01:00

Eh Mark
Nice game. Forgive me if there are errors in this post, but it's getting harder to preview my reply with Google's extra security checks.

Probably coincidental but your opponent played out the first four moves as per the favored CCRL engine openings for SP234 as of a couple of months ago. You were the first to deviate on move four. What is remarkable that the CCRL engine playing black decided on a similar idea to yourself (to delay the center and fianchetto a bishop early).

Looks to me like you are spot on with c7-c5 being the culprit. This is because the d6 square is too weak resulting in a backward pawn early (unlike the traditional start). My engine "Critter" thinks that the better plan is not to weaken d6 any further and play out ...Be8-d7 immediately.

The other fascinating point is that your idea of ...Bc6 is a very subtle example of my gross blog on that idea over here:

http://chess960jungle.blogspot.com.au/2012/01/chess960-bf3.html

I haven't yet found an example where the move Bc6 or it's equivalents works, in the case when there is an opposing knight, as there is in SP234 with the knight on a1.

Whatever, I'm no expert!
Enjoy 960.

Cheers
Harry

Mark thanks for the encouragement! You're blog...

2012-02-12T08:32:19.671+01:00

Mark thanks for the encouragement! You're blog started the discussion on SP941 over two years ago at: http://chess960frc.blogspot.com.au/2009/11/chess960-catastrophe.html

The most detailed analysis of it so far has been done here:
http://chess960jungle.blogspot.com.au/2011/06/tricky-tricky-chess960-part-2.html

and here:

http://chess960jungle.blogspot.com.au/2011/07/tricky-tricky-chess960-part-3.html

Black has ways to defend but they must be committed to memory. There are probably a few more positions like this that have to be committed to memory but they need not be excluded from the 960 set...

Let's guess that there are 50 RED HOT SP's in the 960 totality. So what if black's reply has to be pre-memorized for optimal play? This is good. Chess960 covers every chess skill and more. It requires constant creativity over the board and home preparation too. We just get wise to these few tricky tricky Chess960 starts!

Think of it like picking mushrooms in a field of mushrooms. Most of the mushrooms are very tasty and good. But there is the occasional mushroom that will kill you unless you know that it needs special cooking preparation before eating it.

Put it another way. These few red hot SP's make for a great Chess960 book. So much theory could be written up on Chess960 if only people get into it.

I do love the comment that Chess960 feels like your lounge room furniture has been moved around every time you enter the room.

Enjoy 960!

Armenia has two champions today congratulations! L...

2012-01-29T23:05:10.817+01:00

Armenia has two champions today congratulations! Levon Aronian at Wijk aan Zee and Hrant Melkumyan at the Armenian Chess960 championships!

http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/news/90416/Hrant_Melkumyan_becomes_Armenias_Chess_960_champion_of_2012

Enjoy 960

Hi Mark hope you are well. Did a quick write up to...

2012-01-22T22:37:38.429+01:00

Hi Mark hope you are well. Did a quick write up to expand on this post here:

http://chess960jungle.blogspot.com/2012/01/chess960-queen-moves-qf1-qh3-or-qc1-qa3.html

Cheers

Irina said: "• You need to fight for the cent...

2012-01-15T17:51:36.546+01:00

Irina said: "• You need to fight for the center."

This reminds me of a response I got years ago when debating FRC960. A critic asserted that chess was dependent on the one traditional setup because no other setup would enable the players to fight for the center.

No way that critic is correct. In his words I saw the common tyranny of tradition.
Traditional chess is not a religion that is above logical assessment and reassessment.

Harry, The Goldilocks pattern applies to chess set...

2012-01-11T08:15:16.887+01:00

Harry,
The Goldilocks pattern applies to chess setups.

[SETUP IS TOO UNKNOWN] A setup that the two masters have never studied or played before --- In practice this results in opening play that is not as interesting as traditional opening play EXCEPT that it is novel.

[SETUP IS TOO KNOWN] This is the traditional setup and its excessive problems that we all know about today.

[SETUP IS PARTLY KNOWN] This is the golden spot, the "just right" spot for chess openings that are most entertaining (for "spectators" like me who look through the games via .PGN & Fritz a week or a year after they are played). The golden spot provides numerous ripe opportunities for clever novelties during the opening phase, so masters can plausibly fight for wins. Until we have a second stable setup, all play will continue on one of the two outside extremes away from the golden spot.

To watch the analyzed / memorized variations a second stable setup get continuously extended by clever masters, at the rate of new extensions every month or week, would be far more exciting and informative opening play than the ongoing traditional repetitious opening play we get from big name tournaments today.
Seeing the early phase of these extensions is what Mark's "Let's Play" proposal to me is really about. I can imagine a couple people doing this in Advanced Chess (humans who are encouraged to consult with Fritz before choosing each move). But presently I haven't the time to participate well.

Thanks.
GeneM

GeneM - If you would like to play a couple of game...

2012-01-10T03:53:26.014+01:00

GeneM - If you would like to play a couple of games, one with each color, using SP549 RNBBKNQR, I can certainly agree to that. If you would like to force me to play only that position for the rest of my life, then you should explain why. Why one position? Why SP549? It is your responsibility, not mine, to present your reasons. - Mark

GeneM I think Mark has already articulated in this...

2012-01-09T23:10:35.047+01:00

GeneM
I think Mark has already articulated in this blog but here are some points:

1) Bobby Fischers idea was that by allowing all 960 positions to appear and by not knowing the start position before the game commencement, players fully exercise conceptual thought. There is nothing "random" about conceptual thought! Conceptual thinking is also very memory intensive, because the players have to develop concepts over time which consist of thousands and thousands of chunks of memorised ideas that they have acquired.

2) Adding one position to the traditional start is fine but it is not Chess960. Therefore the aims of Chess960 will not be realised. You will see that computer analysis will dominate and the position will be dead not in 200 years but in 20 years and then in 2 years and then in 2 months and so on....Chess960 like Chess, is supposed to be a game that exercises total and complete conceptual thought over the board. Memorization of the opening is a side effect of Chess and actually expresses a limitation of Chess itself. That is Bobby's point when he said that Chess is a bad game.

3) If you just add one position to traditional chess, what position and upon what basis will you select it? Will you select it because it compares with traditional chess? But all 960 chess starts already compare with the traditional start anyway! The selection process is arbitrary and you will find that the "arbitrary" nature of the selection will simply back fire. Do not underestimate Bobby Fischer. He probably thought all of these issues through for a long time and thus settled on Chess960 conceptually, and I doubt that you can improve on his thinking on the subject.

4) I think people are deeply confused about what they think "theory" is. Traditional chess theory is conceptual thinking and this it shares 100% in common with Chess960. Where traditional chess differs from Chess960 is not in "theory" but a huge database of accumulated "facts" on best practice. The "facts" just back up the theory. BUT THE THEORY DOESN'T NEED THESE FACTS TO BACK IT UP. There are chess theories that work and theories that don't work. But Chess(960) is a game, and so theory is perfectly tested game after game after game because of the game result. The chess theory in 960 is exactly the same as traditional chess in all 960 positions it is merely that some positions exercise particular aspects of that same theory.

Chess960 = Chess
Chess = Chess960

Can you not see this?

Adding a second arbitrarily selected position to Chess is fine, but why bother to do that? You will have to add a third position then a 4th then a 5th and so on. It is much simpler to get used to Chess960 which changes nothing in Chess, but to render the accumulated facts on the traditional start obsolete, except when the traditional start shows up with a 1/960 chance.

Cheers
Harry

Mark, I believe Fischer Random Chess is better wit...

2012-01-08T05:06:19.283+01:00

Mark,
I believe Fischer Random Chess is better without the 'Random'.
Better to add just S#549 RNBBKNQR as the second accepted starting setup.

I gather you disagree, and believe it is better to randomly determine the setup minutes before the clocks start. My question to you is...
*** WHY? ***
Why is accepting just one additional setup less desirable overall?

As your answer, you may have several Pros for massive random, and only a couple of Cons: but until you can articulate here in a blog entry how you see those Pros & Cons, some debates lack the necessary foundation.

Thanks, GeneM

where do we get these dice--i looked on the intern...

2012-01-04T17:52:03.359+01:00

where do we get these dice--i looked on the internet & cannot find them 4 sale.